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	<title>Comments for Cap'n Refsmmat's Blog of Doom</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn</link>
	<description>Science 'n stuff.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Project Euler by NeonBlack</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/07/18/project-euler/#comment-4763</link>
		<dc:creator>NeonBlack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/?p=53#comment-4763</guid>
		<description>I'm glad to see another PE'er. The key to many of the problems is "smart" brute-forcing, ie, finding some way to drastically reduce the number of conditions you need to check.
Since most of the problem forums are closed now, if you come up with a particularly elegant solution you'd like to share, I would love to see it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad to see another PE&#8217;er. The key to many of the problems is &#8220;smart&#8221; brute-forcing, ie, finding some way to drastically reduce the number of conditions you need to check.<br />
Since most of the problem forums are closed now, if you come up with a particularly elegant solution you&#8217;d like to share, I would love to see it!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Literary Analysis: Metaphysics? by Maine literary agents listings</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/04/15/literary-analysis-metaphysics/#comment-4710</link>
		<dc:creator>Maine literary agents listings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/04/15/literary-analysis-metaphysics/#comment-4710</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Maine literary agents listings...&lt;/strong&gt;

[...] married to Jeannie for 22 years, and have two great kids: Liesl (14) and Max (10). Search:  Categories blogs books church emergent emerging church faith family humor music news personal thinking. tv/movies Uncategorized [...]...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Maine literary agents listings&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[...] married to Jeannie for 22 years, and have two great kids: Liesl (14) and Max (10). Search:  Categories blogs books church emergent emerging church faith family humor music news personal thinking. tv/movies Uncategorized [...]&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Progress Is Being Made by how to install a floppy drive</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/06/29/progress-is-being-made/#comment-4671</link>
		<dc:creator>how to install a floppy drive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/?p=49#comment-4671</guid>
		<description>well done, the site is slowerly growing!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well done, the site is slowerly growing!!!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Bible Reading Progress by ecoli</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/07/03/bible-reading-progress/#comment-4191</link>
		<dc:creator>ecoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/?p=50#comment-4191</guid>
		<description>yup, most of the OT is about how the israelites conquered their lands militarily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yup, most of the OT is about how the israelites conquered their lands militarily.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Reading the Bible by Cap&#8217;n Refsmmat&#8217;s Blog of Doom &#187; Bible Reading Progress</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/06/23/reading-the-bible/#comment-4189</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap&#8217;n Refsmmat&#8217;s Blog of Doom &#187; Bible Reading Progress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/?p=47#comment-4189</guid>
		<description>[...] recently announced that I was attempting to read the Bible. Progress has been slow; however, I have purchased an NIV [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] recently announced that I was attempting to read the Bible. Progress has been slow; however, I have purchased an NIV [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Progress Is Being Made by yourdadonapogos</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/06/29/progress-is-being-made/#comment-4185</link>
		<dc:creator>yourdadonapogos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 01:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/?p=49#comment-4185</guid>
		<description>YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Progress Is Being Made by ecoli</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/06/29/progress-is-being-made/#comment-3968</link>
		<dc:creator>ecoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/?p=49#comment-3968</guid>
		<description>w00t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>w00t</p>
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		<title>Comment on Progress Is Being Made by blike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/06/29/progress-is-being-made/#comment-3962</link>
		<dc:creator>blike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/?p=49#comment-3962</guid>
		<description>Nice!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice!</p>
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		<title>Comment on How It Works by how to seo vbulletin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/03/07/how-it-works/#comment-3958</link>
		<dc:creator>how to seo vbulletin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/03/07/how-it-works/#comment-3958</guid>
		<description>vbulletin have release an addin called vbridge III that does this</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>vbulletin have release an addin called vbridge III that does this</p>
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		<title>Comment on Going Gradeless by Podblack</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/05/06/going-gradeless/#comment-3932</link>
		<dc:creator>Podblack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 08:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/2008/05/06/going-gradeless/#comment-3932</guid>
		<description>Hi - former high school teacher, current educational researcher here. If it's okay, could you contact me for some feedback on a project I'm helping get together? Email is in the 'required' box. :)

   1. Will students lose motivation without direct qualitative feedback? 

You cannot escape direct qualitative feedback. Even in 'outcomes based education', 'alternative' programs like the Baccalaureate system, the practice of giving feedback will remain unchanged. However, there are systems that do not use percentage grades, but they are few and far between. 'Levels' is one such method.
The issue that arose in my state, Western Australia, is that the practice of portfolios, projects, assignments that had a variety of parts that required assessing... became unwieldy and was not supported by curriculum models prior to implementation. In short, the work of a teacher tripled as the work of the student doubled.
You must also realise - people are familiar with percentages. People find it comfortable to say they're '76%' when all it really means is that they're one up from '75%' and one lower than '78%'. Cutoffs must happen somehow.
What has happened for some courses however, are required practicals. Presentation of work like art portfolios and samples of work, that show skill and not just a grade. Interviews are mandatory at the university I attended. Many medical schools now require interviews to sift out who are just 'good at hitting the books' as opposed to 'both a hard working student and passionately dedicated and interested in becoming a medico'.
I think this may become the way forward for quite a few institutions, although it does add additional administration to what is usually just 'fill a quota for a subject'. Another thing that you have to consider - people have to be paid to do the interviewing.

   2. Does this mean we have to resort to having teachers pick the valedictorian? (Oh noes!)

In my country, we don't really have that system... but I do recall that the 'class prefect' was a young woman who was not the top Chem student but the most passionate about making it part of her future career. She was responsible, passionate, sensible and worked for what she got. I, personally, would propose to whatever formal body exists at your school to have such a consideration go on before any particular student is chosen to 'speak for' the cohort?

   3. Is it feasible to instill motivation to understand? This would have to be a ground-up change — start with young kids — and parents would have to evaluate qualitative report cards similarly to quantitative ones.

You might be interested in my work on this - I have a series of posts on Skeptical Books for Children that investigates early education on my site.
As for the point about parents - you also have to realise that they have been brought up under a system that used percentages. I have had for the past ten years, parents who came into parent/teacher interviews saying 'yeah, you said this, that and the other ... but WHERE does she come in the class compared to the rest?' Some ask for percentages. Some ask whether their child is in the 'top ten'. You can, as I did, give practical strategies and outline where you were heading for the rest of the year with the lessons... but the 'quant' does have a bigger impact than the 'qual'. This is the system that has been fostered for many, many years.

If you're interested in alternative methods of education, I can tell you some more - but honestly, I'd be (as a student) talking to my student representatives to bring something to the teachers in regards to how you are graded and whether more feedback can be brought to bear in report cards? Or if you think there's not enough on the work handed back to you, encourage more class discussions on the cohort's progress so it's not so much 'I'm number 7 in a class of 24'.

Podblack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi - former high school teacher, current educational researcher here. If it&#8217;s okay, could you contact me for some feedback on a project I&#8217;m helping get together? Email is in the &#8216;required&#8217; box. <img src='http://blogs.scienceforums.net/capn/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
   1. Will students lose motivation without direct qualitative feedback? </p>
<p>You cannot escape direct qualitative feedback. Even in &#8216;outcomes based education&#8217;, &#8216;alternative&#8217; programs like the Baccalaureate system, the practice of giving feedback will remain unchanged. However, there are systems that do not use percentage grades, but they are few and far between. &#8216;Levels&#8217; is one such method.<br />
The issue that arose in my state, Western Australia, is that the practice of portfolios, projects, assignments that had a variety of parts that required assessing&#8230; became unwieldy and was not supported by curriculum models prior to implementation. In short, the work of a teacher tripled as the work of the student doubled.<br />
You must also realise - people are familiar with percentages. People find it comfortable to say they&#8217;re &#8216;76%&#8217; when all it really means is that they&#8217;re one up from &#8216;75%&#8217; and one lower than &#8216;78%&#8217;. Cutoffs must happen somehow.<br />
What has happened for some courses however, are required practicals. Presentation of work like art portfolios and samples of work, that show skill and not just a grade. Interviews are mandatory at the university I attended. Many medical schools now require interviews to sift out who are just &#8216;good at hitting the books&#8217; as opposed to &#8216;both a hard working student and passionately dedicated and interested in becoming a medico&#8217;.<br />
I think this may become the way forward for quite a few institutions, although it does add additional administration to what is usually just &#8216;fill a quota for a subject&#8217;. Another thing that you have to consider - people have to be paid to do the interviewing.</p>
<p>   2. Does this mean we have to resort to having teachers pick the valedictorian? (Oh noes!)</p>
<p>In my country, we don&#8217;t really have that system&#8230; but I do recall that the &#8216;class prefect&#8217; was a young woman who was not the top Chem student but the most passionate about making it part of her future career. She was responsible, passionate, sensible and worked for what she got. I, personally, would propose to whatever formal body exists at your school to have such a consideration go on before any particular student is chosen to &#8217;speak for&#8217; the cohort?</p>
<p>   3. Is it feasible to instill motivation to understand? This would have to be a ground-up change — start with young kids — and parents would have to evaluate qualitative report cards similarly to quantitative ones.</p>
<p>You might be interested in my work on this - I have a series of posts on Skeptical Books for Children that investigates early education on my site.<br />
As for the point about parents - you also have to realise that they have been brought up under a system that used percentages. I have had for the past ten years, parents who came into parent/teacher interviews saying &#8216;yeah, you said this, that and the other &#8230; but WHERE does she come in the class compared to the rest?&#8217; Some ask for percentages. Some ask whether their child is in the &#8216;top ten&#8217;. You can, as I did, give practical strategies and outline where you were heading for the rest of the year with the lessons&#8230; but the &#8216;quant&#8217; does have a bigger impact than the &#8216;qual&#8217;. This is the system that has been fostered for many, many years.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re interested in alternative methods of education, I can tell you some more - but honestly, I&#8217;d be (as a student) talking to my student representatives to bring something to the teachers in regards to how you are graded and whether more feedback can be brought to bear in report cards? Or if you think there&#8217;s not enough on the work handed back to you, encourage more class discussions on the cohort&#8217;s progress so it&#8217;s not so much &#8216;I&#8217;m number 7 in a class of 24&#8242;.</p>
<p>Podblack.</p>
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