<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: female homosexuality</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/</link>
	<description>a science and medicine related weblog from scienceforums.net</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Paralith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>Paralith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-56</guid>
		<description>I'll start posting my comments on that post, then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll start posting my comments on that post, then.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ecoli</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>ecoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-55</guid>
		<description>Most of the terminology is from game theory anyway.  I, too, would love to be able to study it.

  However, the reason I'm skeptical about reciprocity being the determining factor, is that, if there's no cheap cost of coercion, there's no easy way to enforce the 'reciprocity' part.    
There's no incentive to help foreigners who might not stick around.

Cooperative group living can indeed be successful to the cooperators, but in almost every other non-human society, it doesn't work with non-kin altruists.  

  This is because there is almost always some cheater who realizes that he can be very successful if he takes from the cooperators without giving anything back.  Since a cheater is almost physically stronger, the cooperators will likely put up with the cheater rather than pay the cost of coercing the cheater.  

  If the frequency of cheaters is high, than cooperation is simply not worth it, especially with non-kin.  

  It is our ability to suppress cheating that makes altruism worth it.  I wrote a new blog post on this topic, actually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the terminology is from game theory anyway.  I, too, would love to be able to study it.</p>
<p>  However, the reason I&#8217;m skeptical about reciprocity being the determining factor, is that, if there&#8217;s no cheap cost of coercion, there&#8217;s no easy way to enforce the &#8216;reciprocity&#8217; part.<br />
There&#8217;s no incentive to help foreigners who might not stick around.</p>
<p>Cooperative group living can indeed be successful to the cooperators, but in almost every other non-human society, it doesn&#8217;t work with non-kin altruists.  </p>
<p>  This is because there is almost always some cheater who realizes that he can be very successful if he takes from the cooperators without giving anything back.  Since a cheater is almost physically stronger, the cooperators will likely put up with the cheater rather than pay the cost of coercing the cheater.  </p>
<p>  If the frequency of cheaters is high, than cooperation is simply not worth it, especially with non-kin.  </p>
<p>  It is our ability to suppress cheating that makes altruism worth it.  I wrote a new blog post on this topic, actually.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paralith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>Paralith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-53</guid>
		<description>Ah. I didn't think it would be quite so literal. I must admit that I'm a little skeptical of the idea  that our ability to bean each with rocks from a distance is the primary reason why we're able to live peaceably with non-kin. I'm sure it could play a part, but I lean more towards reciprocity being the main driving force. Cooperative group living is successful because each individual can be more reproductively successful by cooperating with others than they can on their own. If you live in a group with the same individuals, you interact with them multiple times, and if you cheat in one of those interactions, your fellow group members may simply decide to end their cooperative relationship with you, which can be costly to you.   

It would be interesting to compare the effect of actual physical punishment vs the loss of cooperative relationships. Perhaps neither one is sufficient and some elements of both are required? This makes me want to study game theory some more, haha.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah. I didn&#8217;t think it would be quite so literal. I must admit that I&#8217;m a little skeptical of the idea  that our ability to bean each with rocks from a distance is the primary reason why we&#8217;re able to live peaceably with non-kin. I&#8217;m sure it could play a part, but I lean more towards reciprocity being the main driving force. Cooperative group living is successful because each individual can be more reproductively successful by cooperating with others than they can on their own. If you live in a group with the same individuals, you interact with them multiple times, and if you cheat in one of those interactions, your fellow group members may simply decide to end their cooperative relationship with you, which can be costly to you.   </p>
<p>It would be interesting to compare the effect of actual physical punishment vs the loss of cooperative relationships. Perhaps neither one is sufficient and some elements of both are required? This makes me want to study game theory some more, haha.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ecoli</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>ecoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-52</guid>
		<description>organisms that can effectively exercise threat (kill) at a distance.  Thereby reducing the cost of coercion.  

  Humans' unique throwing ability has allowed for this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>organisms that can effectively exercise threat (kill) at a distance.  Thereby reducing the cost of coercion.  </p>
<p>  Humans&#8217; unique throwing ability has allowed for this.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paralith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Paralith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-50</guid>
		<description>remote killers? What are those?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>remote killers? What are those?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ecoli</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>ecoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Well, compared to non-human animals, coercive threat is very cheap.  That is because we evolved the ability to express threat at a distance AKA remote killers.  While there is still a cost for punishing cheaters, the human village initially evolved because that cost is greatly (relative to proximal killers) suppressed in human populations.
  
  While this doesn't force every individual to play along - there are still aggressive individuals who take more than they give - it still does allow for non-kin social cooperation to develop, which allows for large social units to form.  

This idea is the basis for the class I'm taking.  And even if it's not exactly right, I have to pretend to get full credit.  :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, compared to non-human animals, coercive threat is very cheap.  That is because we evolved the ability to express threat at a distance AKA remote killers.  While there is still a cost for punishing cheaters, the human village initially evolved because that cost is greatly (relative to proximal killers) suppressed in human populations.</p>
<p>  While this doesn&#8217;t force every individual to play along - there are still aggressive individuals who take more than they give - it still does allow for non-kin social cooperation to develop, which allows for large social units to form.  </p>
<p>This idea is the basis for the class I&#8217;m taking.  And even if it&#8217;s not exactly right, I have to pretend to get full credit.  :D</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paralith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Paralith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-48</guid>
		<description>"The data suggests that human brain development and slow infant growth was enabled by the development of large scale non-kin dependent social cooperation. The latter was only able to develop because of the cheap cost of coercive threat by cooperators against cheaters."

Hmm. I would have to disagree that coercive threat was necessarily cheap. There is often a cost for punishing cheaters - the family of the cheater might retaliate, you might gain a less than positive reputation in your group for your violence, etc. If you look up collective action problems, this is considered a second order collective action problem. Religion is hypothesized to have developed as a solution to this problem. A supernatural being takes the responsibility of carrying out the punishment, even if it's only promised punishment in the next life. This way, no individual in the group has to pay punishment costs but they all benefit from the cheaters being discouraged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The data suggests that human brain development and slow infant growth was enabled by the development of large scale non-kin dependent social cooperation. The latter was only able to develop because of the cheap cost of coercive threat by cooperators against cheaters.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmm. I would have to disagree that coercive threat was necessarily cheap. There is often a cost for punishing cheaters - the family of the cheater might retaliate, you might gain a less than positive reputation in your group for your violence, etc. If you look up collective action problems, this is considered a second order collective action problem. Religion is hypothesized to have developed as a solution to this problem. A supernatural being takes the responsibility of carrying out the punishment, even if it&#8217;s only promised punishment in the next life. This way, no individual in the group has to pay punishment costs but they all benefit from the cheaters being discouraged.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ecoli</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>ecoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-45</guid>
		<description>I presume that would be one way, though I suppose that the effect could be more subtle than what I described.  

This is just a speculation extending from a class discussion.  I haven't read any literature on the subject even.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I presume that would be one way, though I suppose that the effect could be more subtle than what I described.  </p>
<p>This is just a speculation extending from a class discussion.  I haven&#8217;t read any literature on the subject even.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: CDarwin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>CDarwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-44</guid>
		<description>To test this would you look at the ethnographic record and see if female homosexuality is more common in societies with strong female bonds and frequent resource shortages?

Thinking on the primatological data, it fits your hypothesis somewhat. Bonobos practice female homosexuality (quite frequently) and also have strong female social bonding. Who knows where the causation is, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To test this would you look at the ethnographic record and see if female homosexuality is more common in societies with strong female bonds and frequent resource shortages?</p>
<p>Thinking on the primatological data, it fits your hypothesis somewhat. Bonobos practice female homosexuality (quite frequently) and also have strong female social bonding. Who knows where the causation is, though.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ecoli</title>
		<link>http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>ecoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.scienceforums.net/ecoli/2008/03/08/female-homosexuality/#comment-42</guid>
		<description>Reciprocal altruism is half the story, yes.  But, in human societies, you also have forced reciprocal altruism, in the sense that cheaters who take advantage of non-kin dependent social cooperation are ostracized, or coerced into doing so.  

  The data suggests that human brain development and slow infant growth was enabled by the development of large scale non-kin dependent social cooperation.  The latter was only able to develop because of the cheap cost of coercive threat by cooperators against cheaters.  

That being said, in this example, females would engage in kin-independent homosexuality in order to delay child birth, which would be reciprocally altruistic.  However, individuals who refused to "give" wouldn't be able to cheat and just "receive" the benefit of female homosexuality.  Because there is the cost of coercion is low for the female cooperators (just throw a rock at the cheaters head).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reciprocal altruism is half the story, yes.  But, in human societies, you also have forced reciprocal altruism, in the sense that cheaters who take advantage of non-kin dependent social cooperation are ostracized, or coerced into doing so.  </p>
<p>  The data suggests that human brain development and slow infant growth was enabled by the development of large scale non-kin dependent social cooperation.  The latter was only able to develop because of the cheap cost of coercive threat by cooperators against cheaters.  </p>
<p>That being said, in this example, females would engage in kin-independent homosexuality in order to delay child birth, which would be reciprocally altruistic.  However, individuals who refused to &#8220;give&#8221; wouldn&#8217;t be able to cheat and just &#8220;receive&#8221; the benefit of female homosexuality.  Because there is the cost of coercion is low for the female cooperators (just throw a rock at the cheaters head).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
